February 2, 2023
Dualta Doherty

Joe Jani: President and MD at Metric Search - Podcast

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Joe is a true case of success in recruitment having built a team with over 50 people, global offices in New York, London, and Nottingham, a 10M revenue, and a number of awards within the industry - all in 3 years! We discuss all things setting up a US business, generating revenue during the pandemic by partnering with a number of companies in life science and med-tech, hiring and training grads to be big billers, and much more!

Llisten or read our conversation below. Enjoy!

Dualta Doherty: Okay. Welcome to the Recruiter Startup Podcast. I'm joined today by what can only be the best hair in agency recruitment. Come on. Is that real? For any audio listeners only? I'm talking full on young genre troll to  

Joe Jani: hear. Hey, thanks to, I have been told a number of times I do look like a textbook recruiter.

I don't know if that's a compliment or not, but we'll go from there.  

Dualta Doherty: As a bald man in his late thirties, I'm definitely a little jealous, so it's great to have you. So your company's called Metric Search. Give a snapshot of where you're currently at, just size wise.

Joe Jani: Yeah, no, thanks for having us firstly.

So yeah, metric Search been a really good journey so far.  We're currently at 53. Headcount wise. Three officers, New York, London, and slightly less glamorous, but not again. Just finished our last financial year where we hit 10 million revenue. That's all across perm and good insight into our size.

Dualta Doherty: Lovely lovely. That is unbelievable. No, what's even more unbelievable about it is how many years did that take?  

Joe Jani: Yeah, so it started just back end of 2019, so we just ended year three.  

Dualta Doherty: That's unbelievable. It's astronomical, right? And what makes us even more unbelievable is the dog average university degree.

You got in business studies. I know because I have one, right? It's Bings like me and you in there. And so how long, so you do this average degree, you've got remarkable hair, but you get into agency recruit. And let me just read this off for anybody who's wondering if there's any use. First person to build 500 K in a year.

First person to build 2 million highest ever revenue. 2 2 17. Two 18 Highest ever? First Revenue. First retainer award, two times. Global Top builder, 225% of team target in America. It goes on and on, right? How? Did you just get it straight Was there a turning moment? Did you get lucky?

What's the story? Is it in the hair?  

Joe Jani: Yeah. I wish I could put it down to the hair but no, I'm afraid, I think. Obviously a two one from Lead to me is as average as degrees get. I from, ah, there you go.  

Dualta Doherty: You're a, in my book. Yeah.  

Joe Jani: No, there you go. That's good. Now I was lucky to be in a good business.

Some really good managers there. I picked it up relatively quickly. Being from Nottingham, there's not too many opportunities where you. Go into a job. It's not a London or New York where everyone's making big money. I was really happy to take that role and when I went home and told my parents the type of money people were making it at my previous firm, they didn't believe me and thought it was some kind of scam.

And I realized, what did dad do? Mom's a social worker. Dad's a  

Dualta Doherty: buyer, right? Okay, so real working class background. Hey.  

Joe Jani: Yeah. Yeah. And that was one of the reasons that, I guess skipping ahead, I was really passionate about coming back to Nottingham and building the business here. There's not too many office jobs, corporate jobs, and definitely jobs like recruitment with high upside.

So really enjoying being back in Nottingham. Yeah.  

Dualta Doherty: You get in there when, how quickly did it take you to start billing?

Joe Jani: I think I did my first deal probably like eight weeks in maybe. I think it was a retainer actually, and then kicked on from there and just got into good habits, and  

Dualta Doherty: so those good habits come from good training, good culture. How did that company structure it to make itself.  

Joe Jani: Yeah, it was when I joined, it was, they were a good period. I think there was probably about 20, 25 people and there were some really good billers there who were doing the training actually.

So you were learning from like the top billers in the company at that point? made an effort to learn from the best person at selling retainers, like the best person on vacancy calls and was just trying to pick their brains for the first year. And try to implement my own style a little bit after that.

But it's always good to learn from good people and I'm hoping that's what people are trying to do here at Metric now as well.  

Dualta Doherty: Yeah. Okay, so you do all of this. Did you set up the America's office for your previous company?  

Joe Jani: Yeah about 25 got the opportunity to move out as GM North America, which was great.

It sounds weird to say now at 25, so I was probably a lot younger than I felt, but yeah, I got that opportunity, moved out there for a year in New York, and then we had a great year and they offered us the opportunity to set up with their support and back in to launch metric. We had a great first year in America and then broke off and launched metric.

Dualta Doherty: Brilliant. Let's, let me ask you the nitty gritties on that. You're obviously an ambitious young man, right? You. You've gone to America and you can see the path of going out on your own, but instead of your current company going, do you know what, there's the door. Get out. Here's your restrictions.

They said, okay, how can we

Joe Jani: be part of that? Exactly that. And that's, I love  

Dualta Doherty: that, by the way. I love that. I think that's a trick that's missed in our industry all the time.  

Joe Jani: Definitely, and I think that's an arrangement that's worked really well for all parties. It was less risky for us, it was beneficial for them.

I think obviously they'll do well out of that now, and hopefully that's the situation we'll find ourselves in a few years time where we'll set someone up with their own business if they're highly ambitious and wanna do something exciting, but they, I'm..

Dualta Doherty: I'm get like, I don't know the details here, so I just wanna squeeze a weave out of you Did you go to them?

Did you go to them and say, Hey, I'm set. And they go whoa. Or walk us through what that, cause that's a tricky thing to navigate. Did you have commission coming? Did you think you had enough money?  

Joe Jani: It was actually the other way around. They came to me and said, do you wanna do this?

And at the time of being in the company with no equity and as the gm and then they were saying, do you wanna set this up as md? It was a no brainer for me, so just snapped the hand off and went for it straight away.  

Dualta Doherty: Interesting. They had the foresight to almost preempt anything happening.

Really? Yeah. And have they done this with anybody else?  

Joe Jani: I don't believe so. No. No, I don't believe so. I think looking back it was probably quite obvious that I was always asking for the next thing. And as, as you do when you're 25, I was looking for the next challenge. And I think it was a really, yeah, it was good foresight by them.

And as I say, it's worked out really well for everyone.  

Dualta Doherty: Yeah. Early days of your launches in the. And like your growth is remarkable. One of the things that we always tell people is get a good niche in a good location, and if you could do that and stick to it, things will work out. Now you had the things a bit back to front in a positive way because you had that presence in New York, you were able to launch in New York and then set up the UK, which is almost making the UK your feeder club for New York.

Joe Jani: Yeah, which has been great. And I think that's almost one of our unique selling points in the sense that there's not many British recruitment firms that start off in New York. We started off in New York in life science manufacturing, which kind of carried us through Covid which I'm sure we'll get to.

But yeah, our headquarters is New York with, we started there. Great city to be in. Obviously expensive place to launch the business, but I think that's, as we've moved over to England, people are really excited by the fact that we do have that US presence and we're established in New York, and we've got a good client base there, which makes things a lot easier.

Dualta Doherty: What, so you're setting up your own business under the other wall. You're getting to a point where you're almost doing, it's almost independently owned by yourself.  

Joe Jani: Yeah, so they've been almost silent partners throughout. I've been managing director and run that, and they've carried on focusing on the current business which they have. So yeah, I've been pretty much doing it out on my own. Yeah. Did you  

Dualta Doherty: tweak anything? When were you tempted to, to tweak anything from what the system? That you learned?

Joe Jani: Not massively. I think there was a lot that I, loads of positives from that business, which I tried to keep all of them. Commission structure was great, really good culture. I think in terms of tweaking things we're probably trying to offer a little bit more flexibility, a little bit less KPI focused. We actually hired like a training and development manager way earlier. I think we were probably like 13 to 15 people when we hired that role and. I guess they were a little slower to do that, but that really elevated us and helped us very really quickly. I think that was one of the really positive moves we made.  

Dualta Doherty: Yeah. And you're in our leadership community, the bridge. You'll see that's not I think moving with the times and having a bit of flexibility and more l and d and more marketing it seems to be a common thread amongst scalable recruitment companies.

Joe Jani: Yeah, I think that's the way to go. And we were almost, at that point, we weren't really sure if we needed it, but making that move and Tim who's in that role, has been really essential. Everyone loves him in the business. That's been a really positive move for us. And if I could go back, that probably would've done it even earlier. But I guess you don't really see the value that role adds till you do it. Yeah. So how  

Dualta Doherty: Current head count days 53. WhatsApp.  

Joe Jani: WhatsApp made. In what sense?  

Dualta Doherty: Like how many off,  

Joe Jani: how many offices? Cool. Yep. New York London, Nottingham London's the smallest. London's about 10, and then I think there's about 20 odd in Nottingham and 20 odd in New York.

Dualta Doherty: How many direct reports do you have out of that? I've got, yeah.

Joe Jani: Yeah, it feels like that sometimes, but but no, the structure's quite good and that's something I've worked quite hard on, to be honest. We've got f. Gm, New York gm, Nottingham, and the head of London office so far.  

Dualta Doherty: Okay. So has it all been plain?

Joe Jani: Sailing? No. I think it goes up and down. Obviously launching September, 2019 just before the pandemic, that was a really challenging period. We go for the grad model here, so we had a lot of really inexperienced recruiters who. To be honest, were like needed help. And it was really tough to manage remotely when no one had done it before. So that was a challenging period. But we made a point of keeping everyone on. We didn't let get rid of anyone. We didn't furlough anyone. And we actually hired, we made some great hires in that period that we probably wouldn't have been able to get, unless we were taking that risk. That was a challenging period of time and, From going, so we did 1.8 million through covid, which I was really proud of in our first year. Between seven or eight of us, I was really happy with that. And then on next year to doing 4 million, which was a good achievement, and then last year doing 10. We showed good growth. I think now is probably the point where we've gone. 25 to 50 really quick. Yeah. It's almost stopped being a startup now, and it seems like a proper company, which obviously comes with a few more challenges, but still enjoying it and but no, it's not been plain sale and by any means,  

Dualta Doherty:  Yeah, it's all about getting the right advisors in at that stage.  I've mentioned a few names to it before, like Paul Bacon and a a few others, and. I think when you have people strategically that can guide you to the next stage and they can plug people in at the right bit, he's been plugging Charlotte into a few places to do like the detail piece, like the operational and the tech stack and all of that.

And I'm sure they put up somebody in to do the financial analysis and somebody else's is in to make sure this, getting those experts into your business at the right time is.  

Joe Jani: Yeah, and just like adding l and d I think that would be one when we do add like a strategic advisor, we'll probably see all the value they added. And I will talk to Paul. I'm supposed to be speaking to him in a couple of weeks. There's a couple of outstanding items on my end, but once they're sorted looking forward to speaking to a couple of people like Paul.  

Dualta Doherty: Yeah. So ultimately you build companies to sell. What how many years are we.

Joe Jani: Yeah, so me and the current directors we've said, look, we wanna. Grow as much as we can in the next five years. We're trying to get to 30 million plus revenue. Get all of these offices stable, structured, grow head count in these three locations we've got. Yeah. And see where we're going in five years at. I think there's a lot of like bigger numbers bonded around in recruitment and I'll sometimes hear people saying, we're gonna sell for a hundred mil, we're gonna sell for 200 mil. And I'm always really reluctant to do that. Of course we'd love to, but I'm always reluctant to go in with that at the start. We're all young, like we're all 30 odd in the leadership team. So I think we've got a good five years and see where we can get to.  

Dualta Doherty: Yeah. Brilliant. There's no way you're 30 odd. What are you?  

Joe Jani: To be fair, I'm actually 30 next week, so I'm actually 29.  

Dualta Doherty: Still 20, still 29. Oh, you'll feel it now next week.

Don't worry. Sure. This is really exciting. If you could visualize. Like things have worked perfectly for you, from like being a top performer to getting international move to growing that, to getting back, to do your own thing. Let's say magically you get that exit and it works out perfectly and it's a five year.Five years, or there's an NBO that happens or something. What would you do?

Joe Jani: Yeah, good. I think I'd probably take a year and then I honest, I thought about this a few times. I think I'd go and do it again. I think I'd want to go and do it again. I listened to one of the podcasts. I think it was Mark?

No, it was like David Spencer person really does life science people, and he was like, obviously he's done it multiple times, and I like the idea of that. If I still got the energy, I'd love to try do it again. Maybe different sector. Yeah.  

Dualta Doherty: I've interviewed Mark KY a couple of times and he sold Euro staff for serious money years ago, and I said okay, so what's the story? What do you do? Then he goes You obviously you have a better standard of living. Your kids are maybe in a better school and you maybe have an extra holiday and maybe some property investments. And then you're like what am I really good at? Then he's then you think I don't wanna be the one doing all the work, so then okay, maybe I'll go back somebody and know they've got Al and you've got a really talented leader and he's away doing it again. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. He gets to fly over America once a month. Do is do the lunch clubs or whatever it is, make sure that everything's going well, goes back somebody else has most of the pressure and then maybe you do it again.

Joe Jani: definitely no, I like the idea of that. And I obviously, I'm known about it from time, but I do love recruitment. I've done really well out the industry. A couple of our grads last year made like couple made 80 K Nottingham Couple made over 150 in London and New York and I'm still buzzing for him. And I think I think I'll always get the buzz from that. I enjoy it. I still do deals myself. Yeah, I still enjoy that.

Dualta Doherty: I saw the MD of of Oscar, not Andy, the other guy put out a post on LinkedIn, apologies, I can't remember his name, but it was about home ownership in young recruiters in their business. I thought it was brilliant. Oh, nice. I can't remember. It was like 60% of them were able to buy their own house. And in times like this, it's wonderful that our industry can provide that.  

Joe Jani: Definitely they've put some really good content out recently as well. I saw they were like featuring a lot of their like million pound or million dollar villas as well, which I thought was cool. No. Yeah, no, I think I'll always be involved in it, but in some aspects, if my wife listens to this, I dunno what she'll say when I get home. She might have something different.  

Dualta Doherty: She'll say I'm hanging on you until you it anyway. Yeah.. Yeah, I'm sure. What do you still love about?

Joe Jani: I think I like being able to help people. I like the energy of the office. I. My main driver with metric is just providing opportunities to people who maybe wouldn't necessarily get them.

I think having the 21, 22 olds come in and work really hard and. Changed their life. I do love that and I like the fact that I feel really well placed to help them. And I think the leadership team here all feel really well placed to help people. We've all, been around the block in our careers, in recruitment. Obviously, none of us are that old, but we've seen a lot of things. We've all done relatively well. I think being able to pass that on, I do enjoy, and I think as an industry it is like no other. I know you can, in New York and London, you've got finance. I think the freedom of flexibility you get in recruitment is way more than that. And in New York, we obviously compete trying to hire people against some of Wall Street banks and like they can make similar money, but they're working till 4:00 AM. It's a different lifestyle or to government recruitment if you do it right, sure.  

Dualta Doherty: I've just come from a private BJ. There you go. My wife's gonna be breaking my balls. You're not making enough money.  

Joe Jani: That's it. That's what I mean. There's not too many jobs where you can, if you good at it, you can literally do what you want.  

Dualta Doherty: And I think you're making this sign easier than it is. There's a reason not many people are able to scale to 50 in that time zone and that, or in that timeline. And that's because it's incredibly hard. How much work did you have to do to get it to that point? Can you give us an insight into that? Because I know it's hard.  

Joe Jani: Yeah. A lot. To be fair, I think the through the pandemic was the main period of time where I was doing that because we just started, we were seven, eight people and I was seven. Seven every day working at night, working all hours. To build this client base up. And then following that, I guess the real hard work was getting the structure in place. And then that took about 18 months to get good leaders in New York, which we've got now to get good leaders in London, which we've got now, and then good leaders in Notting and which we've got. And I think that was, that's difficult, as well as anyone like hiring an experienced recruiters is tough. And trying to get people either bring people through and up to speed or hire people I know. Get them in to form the leadership team. That was tough. But no, look, building anything takes a lot of sacrifice and time and hours. And again, my wife, I'm sure she'll say I don't really switch off. Like I'll be emailing people now, but if one of the team rings me at 12 at night, I'll speak to em. And it is really like a 24 7 job for me. Even though I might not be in the office 24 7, I'm still working thinking about things.

Or if I'm running and listening to one of your podcasts, like I'll get an idea and then I'm writing it down as soon as I get back. So it is just 24 7. And I guess that, I guess most people you interview were probably similar. Yeah.  

Dualta Doherty: Most people don't get to 50 after three years, so I suppose I probably just wanted to hear that, that it, you don't switch off. That's why you got to that point as opposed to going, okay, I'm gonna have a good, A lot of people we would coach, they would do a good quarter, take the foot off the gas.  

Joe Jani: Yeah. Maybe  

Dualta Doherty: You've reinvested every time and grow.  

Joe Jani: Yeah. Yeah. And we've had to but we're in good markets and like life science, manufacturing and construction they've been really good and our clients have been great. They keep coming back to us. They've given us more and more roles each year, so it's a natural progression and the way the blueprint we've got for grads, I feel really confident in it, and I feel like it really works. The average fee or the average year last year for metric was 375 K per. And that was with probably 20 new stars. We've had new stars coming in, doing, I think two of them did over 500. Four of them did over 300. Yeah. The blueprint works. I don't feel nervous hiring grads. Yeah. I feel good hiring them and I feel like if they follow the training and follow the structure and get them off to a good start then we should be fine. That number.

Dualta Doherty: Sounds astronomical. But that probably equates to a deal and a half a month to do 300 in your key markets.  

Joe Jani: Yeah, that's dollars by the way. I will say, yeah, that's what it means.  

Dualta Doherty: A deal, like a deal a month gets you there. Whereas if somebody's in a less fruitful regional desk where their average fee is 4K or 5k yeah, it's tough. That's tough. And I always look at these people, I'm like, what are you doing? If you have the same, you don't need to move to New York, you could move to Nottingham or you could move to London or you could, there's so many better markets that you can work from the UK in better niche disciplines.

Joe Jani: Definitely, and I think, again, that goes back, say 8% of our works in the US and. The US market's great. It's nowhere near as saturated as the UK but that's what I mean. And I think that's another benefit of us being in New York at the start. We've just got that US market, it's set up ready for people to plug into and then they are coming in and doing.

300, 400, 500. And as, as when you're start in recruitment, if you get success early, you're gonna stick it, you're gonna stick with the industry. So that's key for us, getting people up and running ASAP with good commission checks, et cetera. Cool. Can  

Dualta Doherty: I ask you a few questions just might be helpful for other finders of businesses thinking of getting into the us sure. Is there any challenges with winning business you go about.

Joe Jani: No, I think people tend to overcomplicate it. We just we just hired a PC here in Noman who's not worked the US before, and he's done a lot of work in Germany. I honestly don't overcomplicate it. It's so candidate led. If you get a good candidate in the right place, I. Only you're gonna be fine. If you get good candidates working, put 'em in the front of the right people, you'll be fine. The only difference for me is that it's a lot more talent acquisition focused. You're not gonna be dealing with the hiring managers. They might pass you on, but you've gotta have that relationship with hr ta. You probably can't negotiate your terms as much as you would in Europe. It's a bit like, look, take this, it's good. It's 20%. Don't push. But that's fine. Cause you're gonna get a hundred rolls over the year. I think they're probably the key things for us, but I think people overcomplicate it with strategy and yeah, a lot of it's just numbers. Getting good candidates in the right place, in good markets. It's funny, isn't it?

Dualta Doherty: Like I had an advisory session a couple of recently ones I try and leave it all to Charlotte. But I get roped into it and have people ask me real complex questions and I'm. You're over complicating this. Like just get the candidate, control it. Call the person up. Explain your, explain the pitch. Follow up, make it happen. Do the right thing at what I'm interested now is once you get that done, you have the terms, is that is your process then to expand that account and get more Roles?

Joe Jani: Yeah, definitely. And that we're huge on that. And I've always done this from day one in my career. I'll just be, I'll ask for roles constantly. Even before we filled one, I was like, look, this is in a good place. You like this. Let's go for the next one. Let's go for the next one and just make yourself available constantly. When we're in with these big accounts, we're trying to get all the way in.

We're trying to globalize them, we're trying to work with them in different functions. But that's, again, that's. A reason we've grown so quickly and but if you're doing a good job for a company, there's no reason they wouldn't expand with you.  

Dualta Doherty: Yeah. So that leads me to my next question, which so in that you're not really hyper niche in what you would do, like a frank group, for example, where they'd be like, we just do dynamics. You're, we work a certain sector and. You expand the delivery of that from there?

Joe Jani: Definitely. Yeah. We'll work with some big pharma accounts, some big med device accounts. If they wanna hire a HR person or a finance person, like sure we'll do it for, it's easier than hiring a salesperson. But yeah, as long as you understand that. Specific of that market you're in, you'll be fine. Cause again, the process is the same. So as long as you can sell that company let's be honest, doing a LinkedIn recruit search isn't that hard to find a, whoever you find in hr, if you're going to the company's competitors is fine. So yeah, we're not, I wouldn't say we're hyper nicheing that, but we do understand the verticals we're working in.

Dualta Doherty: Okay. You understand the vertical. But your people who work for you don't need to be a salesperson expert within that that they'll be like, you need to be able to recruit whatever roles we give you.  

Joe Jani: Yeah. Basically, as long as it's across let's say certain sections of life science or certain sections of med device or certain sections of construction. Yeah. They need to be able to hire all of them. But again, like that's how we've got to 50 by not being too picky. And I'm like, look, if there's a role there that's a 30 k fee, go fill it. Of course you fill it. And then as they grow their teams we'll slowly and surely get more and more focused. And then we'll have someone who just as sales and just as quality and just as regulator, but in the first three years of running this, Who are we to be turning down business?  

Dualta Doherty: Yeah. do you know what? And that works when you have staff. See if you're just an individual, standalone recruiter and you try that process, you'll get beat all the time. Yeah, of course. But it's really interesting that when you have four people from day one that you're like, I won the account, right guys, we're gonna make this work. And when we deliver on it, then we have more IP processes, all the rest. And then you build out the teams under.

Joe Jani: Of course. And that's exactly what we're doing, continue to do.And we feel really confident in that, getting us to a hundred people, 150 people. So no. Yeah it's worked really well when keeps us busy Again in recruitment, you don't really wanna be sat there with nothing to work on. And I always think as a new starter, you've, yeah, you probably better off practicing, working something that maybe isn't perfectly your area, but it's still practice, it's still a fee. You can still fill it. Yeah.  

Dualta Doherty: What are the current challenges then? You, so you get to 50.  

Joe Jani: Yeah, good question. I guess a lot of grads, I think we added of that 50, we probably added about 20, 25 over the last year. We hired in big groups of grads Obviously getting to 50, we probably could do a bit more middle management, to be honest, across the business. So like I'm still helping grads here and the GM's still helping grads. We're very flat in that sense. That's the challenge. Average age of the company, a lot of people, this is their first job. With that obviously comes challenges. I guess the market has slowed down probably a little bit from maybe. 12 months ago when everyone was coming out, COVID we can't fix the market.

Dualta Doherty: And you have your model of hiring it's work, but let's talk about the middle management piece. Yeah. How do you take somebody into your business who has experience when you have a very specific culture like that's surely.

Joe Jani: That's a big challenge. Yeah. It's tough. And that's always been challenging and I guess it's the way where we've had success is hiring people who've worked in companies who also have the garage model. Yeah. Cuz they understand. We had a couple from Fade just had a guy join in London, head up that office who's worked for a couple of similar companies to us. I guess that's the way we've got around it. I think it'd be difficult for someone to come in and join here from. Maybe a haz or a Michael Page. Yeah. I think that might be challenging. But it is hard hiring experience.  

Dualta Doherty: Actually. The page Walters hay, the PLC model work when you have much more accounts and there's actually a much less, I don't know, there's more average to manage rather than drive it like a stole of grad. It's a different, it's a different, it's a different mindset, but you all end there even.  

Joe Jani: Definitely. And that's good. And I think that's, again, one of the challenges for us is like we want every, everyone does 360. We want everyone doing new bd. There's obviously accounts to work on, but obviously nothing like a page or a haze where they've got every account going. So yeah.  

Dualta Doherty: All right. I think that's also for today, Joel, really interesting story. Have you won any awards? I haven't seen you, I haven't seen your face all over any big awards thing. Have you, you shied away from that?  

Joe Jani: I think we just started looking at a couple, like this year we've been nominated for two, I think we've been nominated for a small business, small, like new recruitment business of the year, and I got nominated for young. Recruitment business person of the year as well. They're in December, so Fingers Cross will win them, but good. Yeah, we've not been, we've not been in for too many, to be honest. No, very good.  

Dualta Doherty: Look really great story and we've talked a lot over the years and you're like, I think I'm ready to come on now. It's cool that you were listening back when you were thinking of Sep. No. But now you're of 50  

Joe Jani: people. Yeah, I mean I've probably listened to all of them. Weirdly was quite nervous to come on actually. And I was kind oh, we're only 10, we're only 20, we're only 30. And then finally decided to to I guess get the bottle to come on and do it. But yeah, no thanks. Having us has been good. And hopefully we'll be able to come on again in another five years, I could tell you by the next plan. Oh, lovely.

Dualta Doherty: And it's funny though, isn't it?  You paying just whoever said two, they're like you're so far ahead and you're a 50 to somebody who's a 20. And they're like, I can't get off this.  

Joe Jani: The journey. It's always good though. I think listening to these I've always taken something from all the ones I've listened to that you've done, and yeah, no, I think it's definitely beneficial. Yeah, no, hopefully you'll be able to come back on again.

Dualta Doherty: Great stuff. All right. Thanks so much for coming.  

Joe Jani: Yeah. Thanks having us. Cheers. I appreciate it.

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